Nobody is arguing that seatbelts shouldn’t be installed, just that they shouldn’t be required. Choosing to not wear a seatbelt doesn’t endanger your fellow man, it only endangers yourself. You should always be free to make bad choices for yourself, and we should have a sufficient safety net that your stupid choices don’t unduly impact those who rely on you (e.g. the family you’re leaving behind).
If we bring this back to the original argument, paying for pre-release doesn’t hurt anyone but your own wallet. It’s stupid, and we should be telling people to not do that, but you should always be free to make stupid decisions. Laws shouldn’t be crafted to reduce my ability to harm myself, as an adult, I can make my own choices. I can absolutely see things related to FOMO being locked behind age gates or something, but a consenting adult should be able to make poor choices.
And that goes for everything. You talked about plastic protections on table saws further down, as a consenting adult, I should be able to easily remove them. You talked about vaccines, as a consenting adult, I should be able to refuse getting them. As a responsible adult, I personally keep safety equipment equipped and get every vaccine my doctor recommends, but I must have the ability to make an alternate decision as a free individual.
So no, we shouldn’t be banning predatory practices from companies, we should be making them more transparent and perhaps putting them behind an age gate if they prove particularly problematic for children. If you want to make a stupid decision, that’s fine, provided you know the consequences going in.
Lol no. Not if you’re going to be around other people
We can certainly have restrictions, like you must have proof of vaccination against a deadly disease to go to a public school, provided there’s a viable alternative to meet legal standards (e.g. home school or private school). Likewise, companies should absolutely be allowed to require proof of vaccination status for entering their store to protect their other customers.
But there should not be a blanked requirement to get vaccinated. You should be able to go to any public space (e.g. parks, sidewalks) w/o being vaccinated, as well as any private space that doesn’t require proof of vaccination.
We live in a free society, and freedom means being able to make your own choices. Life should be easier if you make good choices (get vaccinated, wear a seat belt, etc), but you should be able to make your own bed and lay in it.
And yeah, it is off-topic, but I’m not the one who brought up seat-belts or vaccinations. However, the principles are the same, I should absolutely be free to make stupid decisions, otherwise I’m not free and my only choice is to hopefully elect someone who will force me to do things that I agree with. We should remove force from the equation entirely and merely make consequences for stupid decisions transparent. For something like pre-ordering video games, those consequences are very small, but the principle remains the same.
But there should not be a blanked requirement to get vaccinated. You should be able to go to any public space (e.g. parks, sidewalks) w/o being vaccinated, as well as any private space that doesn’t require proof of vaccination.
Measles hangs out in the air for like two hours. https://www.cdc.gov/measles/causes/index.html . You’d be dangerous on the sidewalks and in the parks, and extremely dangerous in any indoor space.
The freedom to cause an outbreak is not a particularly valuable freedom. The freedom to live life because there’s not another measles outbreak is.
“My personal freedom is more important than yours and your safety” is being a huge asshole, and society has no obligation to support that behavior.
However, the principles are the same, I should absolutely be free to make stupid decisions, otherwise I’m not free and my only choice is to hopefully elect someone who will force me to do things that I agree with. We should remove force from the equation entirely and merely make consequences for stupid decisions transparent
Your freedom to make stupid decisions will often clash with other people’s freedom to live. Your individual freedom is less important than everyone else’s freedom to be safe from measles.
Furthermore, with seatbelts, I’m a stakeholder in your ass not flying through the window and dying. I pay in various ways for your health care, and I lose out when you die. When you hurt yourself, you hurt everyone.
The nuance and where we disagree is where that line is. “You wasted your money on a shit video game” for me is on the “that’s small enough to not worry about” side. Vaccinations, helmets, seatbelts, those have low costs for the individual and large benefits for society.
You’d be dangerous on the sidewalks and in the parks, and extremely dangerous in any indoor space.
I 100% agree. That’s why the rest of us take vaccines to protect ourselves and the ones we love from diseases like this, and those with particular sensitivities (esp. those that cannot use vaccines) take added measures to protect themselves. That’s personal responsibility 101. Enough of us choose to get the measles vaccine that measles isn’t a significant concern anymore.
I think living life w/o getting vaccinated should be possible, but far from convenient. I think you should pay extra for insurance, have to home-school your kids, and not be able to use airplanes, trains, etc. If you spread a disease and it can be traced back to you, you should be charged with criminal negligence and perhaps a few other crimes. If you get locked up, I think forced vaccination should absolutely be on the table (alternative being some kind of body suit to protect guards and other inmates from you, at your expense), unless there’s a private prison that’ll take you that doesn’t require vaccination.
But a law forcing me to put anything into my body will always be immoral, regardless of the intention, because the ends absolutely do not justify the means.
I pay in various ways for your health care, and I lose out when you die.
And you should not. If I am killed or seriously injured due to not wearing a seatbelt, that should invalidate any kind of public payment, and I think certain private payments could reasonably be reduced as well (e.g. auto insurance may limit medical coverage if safety equipment wasn’t properly used). Making stupid choices should have consequences for the person making those stupid choices.
Vaccinations, helmets, seatbelts, those have low costs for the individual and large benefits for society.
I think you’re overstating the benefits for society. If I don’t wear a helmet and die, how does that realistically hurt society? Public benefits and whatnot can absolutely be limited due to negligence. Vaccines are more interesting, but again, I think it’s not really an issue in practice because most people get them, and we can also allow insurance premiums to skyrocket for those who choose not to.
I am totally on-board with limiting protections for people who make stupid choices, but I am not on-board with banning the stupid choices entirely. Make the stupid choices less attractive, but don’t threaten jail time or whatever.
Enough of us choose to get the measles vaccine that measles isn’t a significant concern anymore.
If it’s not a mandate, people will “choose” not to do it, and then people will suffer and die. There are some things, like vaccines, that the cost:benefit is extremely clear.
I think living life w/o getting vaccinated should be possible, but far from convenient. I think you should pay extra for insurance, have to home-school your kids, and not be able to use airplanes, trains, etc
Sucks for the kids. Also how are you going to enforce that? An ankle bracelet? How are you going to make whole the people harmed by someone decides their personal freedom is the only freedom that matters?
unless there’s a private prison that’ll take you that doesn’t require vaccination.
Sucks for the other prisoners who get measles because the private prison didn’t want to pay for vaccines.
But a law forcing me to put anything into my body will always be immoral
I do not accept this axiom.
And you should not. If I am killed or seriously injured due to not wearing a seatbelt, that should invalidate any kind of public payment,
I’m not talking about literal financial transactions. When you die because you didn’t wear a helmet, I lose out on the investment in you. All those years of education, gone. Any job training you had? In the trash. Your mother taking off work to grieve? Ripples of suck spreading through society.
I think you’re overstating the benefits for society. If I don’t wear a helmet and die, how does that realistically hurt society?
Presumably you live in a society with people who care about you. If the lead front eng at work died, the project is going to be delayed, we’re all going to be unhappy, we have to ramp someone up. The whole company could fail as a result.
That’s not even counting the non-work connections.
Things are connected. Someone dying or being seriously injured is a big rock to drop in the pond, and those ripples affect many people. It’s not just money stuff. It’s also social and opportunity costs.
If it’s not a mandate, people will “choose” not to do it, and then people will suffer and die.
Yes, that’s one of the consequences of stupid choices. The point for a society to figure out is how to contain those consequences to those who made a stupid choice.
Also how are you going to enforce that?
The same way we did it during the COVID-19 pandemic, send proof of vaccination to your insurance, airlines, etc. I did that when visiting Canada by car, and people did it when taking airplanes for travel. It worked fine. It’s a little more complicated when the number of vaccinations goes up, but if a company like an airline really cares about it, they can set the parameters for how you can prove it. Then its up to customers to decide whether that process is worth doing, or if they’ll just use a competitor.
But the fact is, many businesses won’t bother unless it’s really important, like if there’s a breakout or something of a specific disease.
Sucks for the other prisoners who get measles because the private prison didn’t want to pay for vaccines.
Prisoners should be able to refuse to go to a private prison and the state should accommodate that.
Ripples of suck spreading through society.
Sure, and that’s why safety equipment and preventative medicine is so important. But at the end of the day, it’s my life to throw away, and nobody else has any valid claim to my education, abilities, etc. Someone who cares about those around them will take the necessary precautions to preserve their life for the benefit of those around them, but that decision should remain theirs.
The only time I think it’s valid to step in and override someone’s choice is if that choice was not made with a clear conscience.
Yes, that’s one of the consequences of stupid choices. The point for a society to figure out is how to contain those consequences to those who made a stupid choice.
I do not accept we need measles and polio outbreaks so casually.
But the fact is, many businesses won’t bother unless it’s really important, like if there’s a breakout or something of a specific disease.
So you accept that there’s not going to be vaccine checking at every bar, hotel, movie theater, museum, etc because that’s impractical. Also a privacy nightmare. But if you’re not making people get vaccinated then you’re just asking for an outbreak. And now people who are worried about that (eg: immunocompromised people, the elderly), their freedom is massively curtailed.
Prisoners should be able to refuse to go to a private prison and the state should accommodate that.
Prisoners are not typically high on the list of people whose rights and dignity are respected. Especially not when profit is to be made. Your position is wildly unrealistic.
Sure, and that’s why safety equipment and preventative medicine is so important. But at the end of the day, it’s my life to throw away, and nobody else has any valid claim to my education, abilities, etc. Someone who cares about those around them will take the necessary precautions to preserve their life for the benefit of those around them, but that decision should remain theirs.
Disagree. Society has an interest in your well being. I also do not accept that the individual is the most important thing, and their desires are paramount. You probably also don’t, at least in some cases, unless you think people should be able to shit everywhere they want and set off dirty bombs for fun in urban areas.
Additionally, if you decide to not wear a bike helmet, get in an accident with me, and then die because your bare skull hit the concrete, then you’ve inflicted that trauma on me. Thanks. I would like to be free of that.
I think our axioms are too different for us to easily have a meaningful conversation. I view your position as fundamentally selfish and too focused on the individual. The supremacy of individual freedom above all else is no way to build a society. I accept that you likely have a fundamental, perhaps visceral, rejection of my worldview.
I also would like to add that there are probably things we do agree on, and I appreciate you taking the time to write all of these replies. I don’t think I have it in me to keep going, though.
you accept that there’s not going to be vaccine checking at every bar, hotel, movie theater, museum, etc because that’s impractical. Also a privacy nightmare.
Yes, it’s impractical, but I don’t think it’s necessarily a privacy nightmare. It would be easy to build an app that merely confirms whether a given vaccine has been taken (esp useful in a pandemic), without revealing any other info. The issue is getting doctors and stores to use it. But if there’s enough demand, it would happen.
The more likely scenario is what we already have: core services like public schools would require vax info when you register.
if you’re not making people get vaccinated then you’re just asking for an outbreak.
How so? It’s exactly what we’re doing now, and outbreaks are rare and very localized. It turns out the quiet majority finds value in vaccines.
What we should be working on is increasing access to vaccines. It’s currently pretty good, but it can be expensive depending on your insurance (or lack thereof). If we want more people vaxxed, the easiest way to do that is to make it free and available at any pharmacy, just like with COVID.
Prisoners are not typically high on the list of people whose rights and dignity are respected
And that should absolutely change. I hate pretty much everything about our criminal justice system, and one of my big ticket items is giving prisoners more choice in their incarceration.
I obviously don’t have any power to enact any of the changes I’ve discussed, but if I could pick one, it would be prisons. I think we should:
Have more private prisons, and compensate based on recidivism rate, not beds; lower recidivism means more money
Give prisoners the option of where to go; so operate it kind of like charter schools and allow prisoners to apply; certain prisons would specialize in different types of rehab
Legalize recreational drugs and eliminate any prison time and scrub records to drastically cut pointless incarcerations
That should transition prisons to specialized rehab centers instead of just places to keep people, which should result in lower overall prison population. Traditional prisons would exist for the truly dangerous criminals, but others would have options.
unless you think people should be able to shit everywhere they want and set off dirty bombs for fun in urban areas.
Your rights end where mine begin. Those two you mentioned directly impact others and thus aren’t moral.
The small possibility of me dying in front of you does not, by itself, cause you any harm. The possibility of trauma is not itself a violation of your rights. I could understand me slaughtering animals in public being an issue, but the mere chance of me getting seriously or fatally injured in public isn’t one.
I accept that you likely have a fundamental, perhaps visceral, rejection of my worldview.
And you’d be right, both on this point and on the point of us agreeing on a ton of things. However, those aren’t what we’re talking about, but I’ll list a few just in case you’re curious:
UBI/NIT - employer individuals to leave bad employers and either find a better one or make their own work; many don’t because they’re too worried about putting food on the table
end the death penalty - I believe every individual is redeemable, so the death penalty is strictly immoral
fully remove oversight for abortion in the first trimester on privacy grounds - this is the time women have miscarriages, and it’s nobody’s business whether she had a miscarriage or an abortion; beyond that, women are immune from prosecution for seeking or attempting an abortion, the only possible criminals are doctors providing illegal care (if states choose to ban it)
completely eliminate qualified immunity - cops should be held to the same standards as private citizens
All of this comes from a place of putting individual rights first, but it’s entirely reasonable to arrive there by other means.
Anyway, I hope you have a fantastic day. I’m sure we both share similar frustrations, we just have different limits on what we’re willing to do to address them.
Nobody is arguing that seatbelts shouldn’t be installed, just that they shouldn’t be required. Choosing to not wear a seatbelt doesn’t endanger your fellow man, it only endangers yourself. You should always be free to make bad choices for yourself, and we should have a sufficient safety net that your stupid choices don’t unduly impact those who rely on you (e.g. the family you’re leaving behind).
If we bring this back to the original argument, paying for pre-release doesn’t hurt anyone but your own wallet. It’s stupid, and we should be telling people to not do that, but you should always be free to make stupid decisions. Laws shouldn’t be crafted to reduce my ability to harm myself, as an adult, I can make my own choices. I can absolutely see things related to FOMO being locked behind age gates or something, but a consenting adult should be able to make poor choices.
And that goes for everything. You talked about plastic protections on table saws further down, as a consenting adult, I should be able to easily remove them. You talked about vaccines, as a consenting adult, I should be able to refuse getting them. As a responsible adult, I personally keep safety equipment equipped and get every vaccine my doctor recommends, but I must have the ability to make an alternate decision as a free individual.
So no, we shouldn’t be banning predatory practices from companies, we should be making them more transparent and perhaps putting them behind an age gate if they prove particularly problematic for children. If you want to make a stupid decision, that’s fine, provided you know the consequences going in.
Lol no. Not if you’re going to be around other people. I don’t want measles, thanks.
Also I have an interest in your idiotic ass not dying because you didn’t wear a seat belt. We live in a society.
This is kind of off topic from “people should stop pre ordering video games”, though.
We can certainly have restrictions, like you must have proof of vaccination against a deadly disease to go to a public school, provided there’s a viable alternative to meet legal standards (e.g. home school or private school). Likewise, companies should absolutely be allowed to require proof of vaccination status for entering their store to protect their other customers.
But there should not be a blanked requirement to get vaccinated. You should be able to go to any public space (e.g. parks, sidewalks) w/o being vaccinated, as well as any private space that doesn’t require proof of vaccination.
We live in a free society, and freedom means being able to make your own choices. Life should be easier if you make good choices (get vaccinated, wear a seat belt, etc), but you should be able to make your own bed and lay in it.
And yeah, it is off-topic, but I’m not the one who brought up seat-belts or vaccinations. However, the principles are the same, I should absolutely be free to make stupid decisions, otherwise I’m not free and my only choice is to hopefully elect someone who will force me to do things that I agree with. We should remove force from the equation entirely and merely make consequences for stupid decisions transparent. For something like pre-ordering video games, those consequences are very small, but the principle remains the same.
Measles hangs out in the air for like two hours. https://www.cdc.gov/measles/causes/index.html . You’d be dangerous on the sidewalks and in the parks, and extremely dangerous in any indoor space.
The freedom to cause an outbreak is not a particularly valuable freedom. The freedom to live life because there’s not another measles outbreak is.
“My personal freedom is more important than yours and your safety” is being a huge asshole, and society has no obligation to support that behavior.
Your freedom to make stupid decisions will often clash with other people’s freedom to live. Your individual freedom is less important than everyone else’s freedom to be safe from measles.
Furthermore, with seatbelts, I’m a stakeholder in your ass not flying through the window and dying. I pay in various ways for your health care, and I lose out when you die. When you hurt yourself, you hurt everyone.
The nuance and where we disagree is where that line is. “You wasted your money on a shit video game” for me is on the “that’s small enough to not worry about” side. Vaccinations, helmets, seatbelts, those have low costs for the individual and large benefits for society.
I 100% agree. That’s why the rest of us take vaccines to protect ourselves and the ones we love from diseases like this, and those with particular sensitivities (esp. those that cannot use vaccines) take added measures to protect themselves. That’s personal responsibility 101. Enough of us choose to get the measles vaccine that measles isn’t a significant concern anymore.
I think living life w/o getting vaccinated should be possible, but far from convenient. I think you should pay extra for insurance, have to home-school your kids, and not be able to use airplanes, trains, etc. If you spread a disease and it can be traced back to you, you should be charged with criminal negligence and perhaps a few other crimes. If you get locked up, I think forced vaccination should absolutely be on the table (alternative being some kind of body suit to protect guards and other inmates from you, at your expense), unless there’s a private prison that’ll take you that doesn’t require vaccination.
But a law forcing me to put anything into my body will always be immoral, regardless of the intention, because the ends absolutely do not justify the means.
And you should not. If I am killed or seriously injured due to not wearing a seatbelt, that should invalidate any kind of public payment, and I think certain private payments could reasonably be reduced as well (e.g. auto insurance may limit medical coverage if safety equipment wasn’t properly used). Making stupid choices should have consequences for the person making those stupid choices.
I think you’re overstating the benefits for society. If I don’t wear a helmet and die, how does that realistically hurt society? Public benefits and whatnot can absolutely be limited due to negligence. Vaccines are more interesting, but again, I think it’s not really an issue in practice because most people get them, and we can also allow insurance premiums to skyrocket for those who choose not to.
I am totally on-board with limiting protections for people who make stupid choices, but I am not on-board with banning the stupid choices entirely. Make the stupid choices less attractive, but don’t threaten jail time or whatever.
If it’s not a mandate, people will “choose” not to do it, and then people will suffer and die. There are some things, like vaccines, that the cost:benefit is extremely clear.
Sucks for the kids. Also how are you going to enforce that? An ankle bracelet? How are you going to make whole the people harmed by someone decides their personal freedom is the only freedom that matters?
Sucks for the other prisoners who get measles because the private prison didn’t want to pay for vaccines.
I do not accept this axiom.
I’m not talking about literal financial transactions. When you die because you didn’t wear a helmet, I lose out on the investment in you. All those years of education, gone. Any job training you had? In the trash. Your mother taking off work to grieve? Ripples of suck spreading through society.
Presumably you live in a society with people who care about you. If the lead front eng at work died, the project is going to be delayed, we’re all going to be unhappy, we have to ramp someone up. The whole company could fail as a result.
That’s not even counting the non-work connections.
Things are connected. Someone dying or being seriously injured is a big rock to drop in the pond, and those ripples affect many people. It’s not just money stuff. It’s also social and opportunity costs.
Yes, that’s one of the consequences of stupid choices. The point for a society to figure out is how to contain those consequences to those who made a stupid choice.
The same way we did it during the COVID-19 pandemic, send proof of vaccination to your insurance, airlines, etc. I did that when visiting Canada by car, and people did it when taking airplanes for travel. It worked fine. It’s a little more complicated when the number of vaccinations goes up, but if a company like an airline really cares about it, they can set the parameters for how you can prove it. Then its up to customers to decide whether that process is worth doing, or if they’ll just use a competitor.
But the fact is, many businesses won’t bother unless it’s really important, like if there’s a breakout or something of a specific disease.
Prisoners should be able to refuse to go to a private prison and the state should accommodate that.
Sure, and that’s why safety equipment and preventative medicine is so important. But at the end of the day, it’s my life to throw away, and nobody else has any valid claim to my education, abilities, etc. Someone who cares about those around them will take the necessary precautions to preserve their life for the benefit of those around them, but that decision should remain theirs.
The only time I think it’s valid to step in and override someone’s choice is if that choice was not made with a clear conscience.
I do not accept we need measles and polio outbreaks so casually.
So you accept that there’s not going to be vaccine checking at every bar, hotel, movie theater, museum, etc because that’s impractical. Also a privacy nightmare. But if you’re not making people get vaccinated then you’re just asking for an outbreak. And now people who are worried about that (eg: immunocompromised people, the elderly), their freedom is massively curtailed.
Prisoners are not typically high on the list of people whose rights and dignity are respected. Especially not when profit is to be made. Your position is wildly unrealistic.
Disagree. Society has an interest in your well being. I also do not accept that the individual is the most important thing, and their desires are paramount. You probably also don’t, at least in some cases, unless you think people should be able to shit everywhere they want and set off dirty bombs for fun in urban areas.
Additionally, if you decide to not wear a bike helmet, get in an accident with me, and then die because your bare skull hit the concrete, then you’ve inflicted that trauma on me. Thanks. I would like to be free of that.
I think our axioms are too different for us to easily have a meaningful conversation. I view your position as fundamentally selfish and too focused on the individual. The supremacy of individual freedom above all else is no way to build a society. I accept that you likely have a fundamental, perhaps visceral, rejection of my worldview.
I also would like to add that there are probably things we do agree on, and I appreciate you taking the time to write all of these replies. I don’t think I have it in me to keep going, though.
Yes, it’s impractical, but I don’t think it’s necessarily a privacy nightmare. It would be easy to build an app that merely confirms whether a given vaccine has been taken (esp useful in a pandemic), without revealing any other info. The issue is getting doctors and stores to use it. But if there’s enough demand, it would happen.
The more likely scenario is what we already have: core services like public schools would require vax info when you register.
How so? It’s exactly what we’re doing now, and outbreaks are rare and very localized. It turns out the quiet majority finds value in vaccines.
What we should be working on is increasing access to vaccines. It’s currently pretty good, but it can be expensive depending on your insurance (or lack thereof). If we want more people vaxxed, the easiest way to do that is to make it free and available at any pharmacy, just like with COVID.
And that should absolutely change. I hate pretty much everything about our criminal justice system, and one of my big ticket items is giving prisoners more choice in their incarceration.
I obviously don’t have any power to enact any of the changes I’ve discussed, but if I could pick one, it would be prisons. I think we should:
That should transition prisons to specialized rehab centers instead of just places to keep people, which should result in lower overall prison population. Traditional prisons would exist for the truly dangerous criminals, but others would have options.
Your rights end where mine begin. Those two you mentioned directly impact others and thus aren’t moral.
The small possibility of me dying in front of you does not, by itself, cause you any harm. The possibility of trauma is not itself a violation of your rights. I could understand me slaughtering animals in public being an issue, but the mere chance of me getting seriously or fatally injured in public isn’t one.
And you’d be right, both on this point and on the point of us agreeing on a ton of things. However, those aren’t what we’re talking about, but I’ll list a few just in case you’re curious:
All of this comes from a place of putting individual rights first, but it’s entirely reasonable to arrive there by other means.
Anyway, I hope you have a fantastic day. I’m sure we both share similar frustrations, we just have different limits on what we’re willing to do to address them.
It is. I just pegged them as libertarians, and I was right.
If I’m being honest, I thought they would have perceived the bait and pretended to care about public health, but alas.