Companies would never employ predatory behaviour to prey on customers, and have never had to be regulated before. It really is the customer’s fault for engaging.
It’d be different if games were a necessity - then the idea of “predatory” behavior would be relevant, since we’d be talking about someone taking advantage of the fact that the consumer has to buy the thing in question.
But games aren’t a necessity - not even close - so any consumer is at any time entirely free to say no to any transaction without suffering any meaningful ill effects.
And any consumers who, in such a situation, do not say no to a bad deal have nobody to blame but themselves.
While I, to some extent, agree with you; it is predatory behaviour by those companies and I don’t like it.
And some people are weak to such practices. Customers have to be protected from themselves to some extent, as has been shown in other industries.
Exactly. It’s not like internet service where you may only have 2 options, and both are predatory. If a AAA is predatory, you can pick another, or play AA and indie games. Hit them where it counts: in the player count.
That said, there may be room to step in if they change the terms of the deal later on. That’s a fraudulent transaction, and they should be punished for it.
No, that’s quite the extreme opposite end of the spectrum.
I just think that, in general, we should refrain from making laws unless it’s to protect victims. I don’t think, in general, people choosing to waste money on stupid games qualifies as being a victim, you can’t victimize yourself. However, changing the terms after the sale certainly qualifies as a bait and switch, and should be illegal and strictly prosecuted.
If we just make laws for every problem we see, we’ll get incredibly inconsistent enforcement. If we have a narrower set of laws, we should see more effective enforcement. That’s where I’m coming from. Save the legislation for truly important things and follow up on enforcement.
That’s where I’m coming from. Save the legislation for truly important things
I don’t disagree, but I feel you’re kind of assuming everyone is capable of rationally engaging with these stupid games. It’s the irrational ones I worry about. Loot boxes and gambling addicts, for instance.
That said, though, the validity of blaming companies for the bad decisions they make knowing they’ll catch so many fish in their net is all I’m really here for. I’ve no idea how I’d “regulate early access” or if that’s even worth doing.
If someone is looking for an addiction, they’ll find it, whether it’s mobile games, live service PC/console games, or actual online gambling. Banning addictions isn’t going to work, the people making these things will just innovate around whatever the regulations are. Gambling is illegal in my area, yet people find all kinds of creative ways to get their fix.
The solution isn’t to ban addicting things, but to teach people to avoid them. This is a behavioral problem, not a legal problem.
I would say that there’s almost nothing that demonstrates more contempt for one’s fellow man than decreeing that they shouldn’t even be allowed to make their own choices.
It’s amusing and revealing that at no point here have you actually directly addressed anything that I’ve actually said. Instead, you’ve just used what I’ve said as a jumping off point for a ludicrously exaggerated, barely relevant and deliberately insulting strawman.
Here’s a challenge for you - instead of leaping from strawman to strawman in this vain effort to somehow prove that I’m a horrible person and therefore wrong, go all the way back to the beginning here and frame a positive argument for your position. Tell me exactly why and on what basis (as appears to be your position) publishers should be prohibited from charging extra for early access, and what nominal public good that would serve.
As a bonus, you might also try to explain how the position that publishers should be allowed to charge extra for early access is in any way “a very anti-covid-vaccine argument.” I’m especially curious about that one.
I mean, I think that this is contentious enough to be worth picking apart.
I can’t imagine calling someone an idiot unless I thought they kind of deserved what was coming to them. It’s this schadenfreude you seem to feel that I take issue with.
I’m especially curious about that one.
Oh, that would be this, actually:
demonstrates more contempt for one’s fellow man than decreeing that they shouldn’t even be allowed to make their own choices.
You are, for some reason, arguing against the concept of rules. I never asked you to do that.
Nobody is arguing that seatbelts shouldn’t be installed, just that they shouldn’t be required. Choosing to not wear a seatbelt doesn’t endanger your fellow man, it only endangers yourself. You should always be free to make bad choices for yourself, and we should have a sufficient safety net that your stupid choices don’t unduly impact those who rely on you (e.g. the family you’re leaving behind).
If we bring this back to the original argument, paying for pre-release doesn’t hurt anyone but your own wallet. It’s stupid, and we should be telling people to not do that, but you should always be free to make stupid decisions. Laws shouldn’t be crafted to reduce my ability to harm myself, as an adult, I can make my own choices. I can absolutely see things related to FOMO being locked behind age gates or something, but a consenting adult should be able to make poor choices.
And that goes for everything. You talked about plastic protections on table saws further down, as a consenting adult, I should be able to easily remove them. You talked about vaccines, as a consenting adult, I should be able to refuse getting them. As a responsible adult, I personally keep safety equipment equipped and get every vaccine my doctor recommends, but I must have the ability to make an alternate decision as a free individual.
So no, we shouldn’t be banning predatory practices from companies, we should be making them more transparent and perhaps putting them behind an age gate if they prove particularly problematic for children. If you want to make a stupid decision, that’s fine, provided you know the consequences going in.
Lol no. Not if you’re going to be around other people
We can certainly have restrictions, like you must have proof of vaccination against a deadly disease to go to a public school, provided there’s a viable alternative to meet legal standards (e.g. home school or private school). Likewise, companies should absolutely be allowed to require proof of vaccination status for entering their store to protect their other customers.
But there should not be a blanked requirement to get vaccinated. You should be able to go to any public space (e.g. parks, sidewalks) w/o being vaccinated, as well as any private space that doesn’t require proof of vaccination.
We live in a free society, and freedom means being able to make your own choices. Life should be easier if you make good choices (get vaccinated, wear a seat belt, etc), but you should be able to make your own bed and lay in it.
And yeah, it is off-topic, but I’m not the one who brought up seat-belts or vaccinations. However, the principles are the same, I should absolutely be free to make stupid decisions, otherwise I’m not free and my only choice is to hopefully elect someone who will force me to do things that I agree with. We should remove force from the equation entirely and merely make consequences for stupid decisions transparent. For something like pre-ordering video games, those consequences are very small, but the principle remains the same.
But there should not be a blanked requirement to get vaccinated. You should be able to go to any public space (e.g. parks, sidewalks) w/o being vaccinated, as well as any private space that doesn’t require proof of vaccination.
Measles hangs out in the air for like two hours. https://www.cdc.gov/measles/causes/index.html . You’d be dangerous on the sidewalks and in the parks, and extremely dangerous in any indoor space.
The freedom to cause an outbreak is not a particularly valuable freedom. The freedom to live life because there’s not another measles outbreak is.
“My personal freedom is more important than yours and your safety” is being a huge asshole, and society has no obligation to support that behavior.
However, the principles are the same, I should absolutely be free to make stupid decisions, otherwise I’m not free and my only choice is to hopefully elect someone who will force me to do things that I agree with. We should remove force from the equation entirely and merely make consequences for stupid decisions transparent
Your freedom to make stupid decisions will often clash with other people’s freedom to live. Your individual freedom is less important than everyone else’s freedom to be safe from measles.
Furthermore, with seatbelts, I’m a stakeholder in your ass not flying through the window and dying. I pay in various ways for your health care, and I lose out when you die. When you hurt yourself, you hurt everyone.
The nuance and where we disagree is where that line is. “You wasted your money on a shit video game” for me is on the “that’s small enough to not worry about” side. Vaccinations, helmets, seatbelts, those have low costs for the individual and large benefits for society.
Nobody’s safety is at risk here, it’s just people who can’t wait 3 days paying more money. It’s bullshit that companies will have a completed game but delay releasing it so people can pay extra for " early on release access" but the solution is simple: don’t pay for it.
Many people are bad at delayed gratification. It’s a little strange to me. Like, I occasionally do impulse buys, but some people are just like “omg I need this sparkly horse armor preorder bonus or I’LL DIE”
I don’t know if that’s a skill that can be taught or what.
Right?
Companies would never employ predatory behaviour to prey on customers, and have never had to be regulated before. It really is the customer’s fault for engaging.
Yes - it really is the customers’ fault.
It’d be different if games were a necessity - then the idea of “predatory” behavior would be relevant, since we’d be talking about someone taking advantage of the fact that the consumer has to buy the thing in question.
But games aren’t a necessity - not even close - so any consumer is at any time entirely free to say no to any transaction without suffering any meaningful ill effects.
And any consumers who, in such a situation, do not say no to a bad deal have nobody to blame but themselves.
While I, to some extent, agree with you; it is predatory behaviour by those companies and I don’t like it.
And some people are weak to such practices. Customers have to be protected from themselves to some extent, as has been shown in other industries.
Exactly. It’s not like internet service where you may only have 2 options, and both are predatory. If a AAA is predatory, you can pick another, or play AA and indie games. Hit them where it counts: in the player count.
That said, there may be room to step in if they change the terms of the deal later on. That’s a fraudulent transaction, and they should be punished for it.
Regulations also hurt them.
Nah, it just encourages them to find clever ways around it. Or just pay the fines as a cost of doing business.
Is it your view then that all laws are useless?
What if the fine was… one billion dollars.
No, that’s quite the extreme opposite end of the spectrum.
I just think that, in general, we should refrain from making laws unless it’s to protect victims. I don’t think, in general, people choosing to waste money on stupid games qualifies as being a victim, you can’t victimize yourself. However, changing the terms after the sale certainly qualifies as a bait and switch, and should be illegal and strictly prosecuted.
If we just make laws for every problem we see, we’ll get incredibly inconsistent enforcement. If we have a narrower set of laws, we should see more effective enforcement. That’s where I’m coming from. Save the legislation for truly important things and follow up on enforcement.
I don’t disagree, but I feel you’re kind of assuming everyone is capable of rationally engaging with these stupid games. It’s the irrational ones I worry about. Loot boxes and gambling addicts, for instance.
That said, though, the validity of blaming companies for the bad decisions they make knowing they’ll catch so many fish in their net is all I’m really here for. I’ve no idea how I’d “regulate early access” or if that’s even worth doing.
If someone is looking for an addiction, they’ll find it, whether it’s mobile games, live service PC/console games, or actual online gambling. Banning addictions isn’t going to work, the people making these things will just innovate around whatever the regulations are. Gambling is illegal in my area, yet people find all kinds of creative ways to get their fix.
The solution isn’t to ban addicting things, but to teach people to avoid them. This is a behavioral problem, not a legal problem.
Do you suppose that choosing not to wear a seatbelt, a very bad deal, should be left entirely up to individuals, um, “stupid” enough to take it?
Yes.
Wow. I wasn’t expecting so much contempt for your fellow man.
I would say that there’s almost nothing that demonstrates more contempt for one’s fellow man than decreeing that they shouldn’t even be allowed to make their own choices.
A plastic casing over a table saw “limits what choices a person can make.” This is a very anti-covid-vaccine argument you’re making.
But that’s fine. I suppose being victim to an unregulated casino means you deserve to rot in Rancho Charleston or whatever.
It’s amusing and revealing that at no point here have you actually directly addressed anything that I’ve actually said. Instead, you’ve just used what I’ve said as a jumping off point for a ludicrously exaggerated, barely relevant and deliberately insulting strawman.
Here’s a challenge for you - instead of leaping from strawman to strawman in this vain effort to somehow prove that I’m a horrible person and therefore wrong, go all the way back to the beginning here and frame a positive argument for your position. Tell me exactly why and on what basis (as appears to be your position) publishers should be prohibited from charging extra for early access, and what nominal public good that would serve.
As a bonus, you might also try to explain how the position that publishers should be allowed to charge extra for early access is in any way “a very anti-covid-vaccine argument.” I’m especially curious about that one.
Feel free to take your time
Oh wow, I really riled you up.
I mean, I think that this is contentious enough to be worth picking apart.
I can’t imagine calling someone an idiot unless I thought they kind of deserved what was coming to them. It’s this schadenfreude you seem to feel that I take issue with.
Oh, that would be this, actually:
You are, for some reason, arguing against the concept of rules. I never asked you to do that.
Nobody is arguing that seatbelts shouldn’t be installed, just that they shouldn’t be required. Choosing to not wear a seatbelt doesn’t endanger your fellow man, it only endangers yourself. You should always be free to make bad choices for yourself, and we should have a sufficient safety net that your stupid choices don’t unduly impact those who rely on you (e.g. the family you’re leaving behind).
If we bring this back to the original argument, paying for pre-release doesn’t hurt anyone but your own wallet. It’s stupid, and we should be telling people to not do that, but you should always be free to make stupid decisions. Laws shouldn’t be crafted to reduce my ability to harm myself, as an adult, I can make my own choices. I can absolutely see things related to FOMO being locked behind age gates or something, but a consenting adult should be able to make poor choices.
And that goes for everything. You talked about plastic protections on table saws further down, as a consenting adult, I should be able to easily remove them. You talked about vaccines, as a consenting adult, I should be able to refuse getting them. As a responsible adult, I personally keep safety equipment equipped and get every vaccine my doctor recommends, but I must have the ability to make an alternate decision as a free individual.
So no, we shouldn’t be banning predatory practices from companies, we should be making them more transparent and perhaps putting them behind an age gate if they prove particularly problematic for children. If you want to make a stupid decision, that’s fine, provided you know the consequences going in.
Lol no. Not if you’re going to be around other people. I don’t want measles, thanks.
Also I have an interest in your idiotic ass not dying because you didn’t wear a seat belt. We live in a society.
This is kind of off topic from “people should stop pre ordering video games”, though.
We can certainly have restrictions, like you must have proof of vaccination against a deadly disease to go to a public school, provided there’s a viable alternative to meet legal standards (e.g. home school or private school). Likewise, companies should absolutely be allowed to require proof of vaccination status for entering their store to protect their other customers.
But there should not be a blanked requirement to get vaccinated. You should be able to go to any public space (e.g. parks, sidewalks) w/o being vaccinated, as well as any private space that doesn’t require proof of vaccination.
We live in a free society, and freedom means being able to make your own choices. Life should be easier if you make good choices (get vaccinated, wear a seat belt, etc), but you should be able to make your own bed and lay in it.
And yeah, it is off-topic, but I’m not the one who brought up seat-belts or vaccinations. However, the principles are the same, I should absolutely be free to make stupid decisions, otherwise I’m not free and my only choice is to hopefully elect someone who will force me to do things that I agree with. We should remove force from the equation entirely and merely make consequences for stupid decisions transparent. For something like pre-ordering video games, those consequences are very small, but the principle remains the same.
Measles hangs out in the air for like two hours. https://www.cdc.gov/measles/causes/index.html . You’d be dangerous on the sidewalks and in the parks, and extremely dangerous in any indoor space.
The freedom to cause an outbreak is not a particularly valuable freedom. The freedom to live life because there’s not another measles outbreak is.
“My personal freedom is more important than yours and your safety” is being a huge asshole, and society has no obligation to support that behavior.
Your freedom to make stupid decisions will often clash with other people’s freedom to live. Your individual freedom is less important than everyone else’s freedom to be safe from measles.
Furthermore, with seatbelts, I’m a stakeholder in your ass not flying through the window and dying. I pay in various ways for your health care, and I lose out when you die. When you hurt yourself, you hurt everyone.
The nuance and where we disagree is where that line is. “You wasted your money on a shit video game” for me is on the “that’s small enough to not worry about” side. Vaccinations, helmets, seatbelts, those have low costs for the individual and large benefits for society.
It is. I just pegged them as libertarians, and I was right.
If I’m being honest, I thought they would have perceived the bait and pretended to care about public health, but alas.
Nobody’s safety is at risk here, it’s just people who can’t wait 3 days paying more money. It’s bullshit that companies will have a completed game but delay releasing it so people can pay extra for "
earlyon release access" but the solution is simple: don’t pay for it.Correct. Very astute.
Sure. But of course, the point of doing that is to suggest to companies that this is naughty behavior. This is naughty behavior, isn’t it?
I do believe I did call it bullshit in the post you’re replying to. However, people paying for it implies acceptable behavior, doesn’t it?
Nooooo-ho-ho-ho, no it does not. You can justify a lot of evil shit with that line of thinking.
Many people are bad at delayed gratification. It’s a little strange to me. Like, I occasionally do impulse buys, but some people are just like “omg I need this sparkly horse armor preorder bonus or I’LL DIE”
I don’t know if that’s a skill that can be taught or what.